Q. You had a very short but eventful tenure. Are you satisfied with the impact you had on policing in Delhi, and how would you describe your contribution?
Neeraj Kumar: I don't want to say what impact I made on the police but my effort has been to professionalize it as much as I could. Everything I did was centred around this basic principle. For instance, I have finalized the chargesheet of the match-fixing case of 2000. It is one of the things that the press has been raising again and again — that these cases don't end in chargesheets. I also intend to finalize the chargesheet of the spotfixing case. I take pride in the fact that I have virtually written and rewritten several chargesheets in important cases — not only the gang rape of last December but also the Gudiya and Kanda cases. I don't think in any other case in which the charge is abetment of suicide, the accused has been inside jail — and hasn't got bail — for over a year. Then there is the Deepak Bhardwaj case and the Nachiketa Kapur case.
We didn't have any instructions on how to conduct investigations abroad. So, I issued a standing order on how to do it, drawing on my experience in CBI. I introduced schemes like Aapka Update. It's a very simple idea — a complainant never gets to know what is happening to his case. So, I devised this system in which every 15 months the investigating officer (IO) should inform the complainant about the status. Then I laid down that SHOs should be present in their area at night and can go home only once a week, which was resisted by them. A lot of them filed anonymous complaints.
There have been many stories about the crime graph rising. See, the simplest thing to do is to reduce the number of registered crimes. All that you need to do is to shoo away the complainant on some ground or the other, deter them from coming to the police. This was happening in lots of complaints related to crimes against women like rapes. So, we gave instructions that when a woman comes to the police station, a separate women's helpdesk will record the complaint and no issues of jurisdiction would be raised.
Soon after taking over, I realized that Delhi is very vulnerable to crimes committed by Mewatis. So, a lot of research took place and it has shown results. We went after them doggedly and smashed a number of gangs.
Q. So you are saying that since there was aggressive policing and registration of cases, there was a spike in the number of cases.
NK: Yes. See, the rape cases have gone up about 150-160 %, molestation by 400%, eve-teasing too is very high, but it does not worry me. It is a clear indication that women's complaints are being registered. I knew that there would be criticism because if somebody wants to write a story against me, the simplest thing is to pick up the crime record. There is no point in hiding crime. If you hide crime, crime will go up. If you register crime, it will not go off the radar, it will get detected, it will get controlled.
Q. Are there any regrets? Your daughter was recently quoted saying that it's a thankless job and she would have never done it.
NK: The unfortunate thing is that when the media targets individuals, they don't realize that besides the officer — who is trained to withstand all the tamasha — the family gets affected very badly. My regret has been that I have been targeted. Just as I have solved all important cases that happened during my tenure, I have also cracked the mystery of why the tirade was against me and not against the police. To put it very simply, certain people I had arrested when I was in CBI are after me. They bankrolled the whole thing. And how have I come to know about it? A member of that team broke ranks because there was a sting operation on him and some of his conversations were recorded. He realized he was helping high-class crooks. He called me up and said 'I want to meet you and apologize'. He came and gave me the entire story, not only this story but others too, even how this case challenging my appointment was filed in the high court. It was part of the same tirade. And he also explained why it started from a certain quarter and then gathered steam.
Q. Do you think there is a communication gap between the police and people — that the good work you do is not appreciated enough?
NK: No, there is no communication gap. Whatever good work we do, we always let it be known to the public but that doesn't make good news. That will find mention in page 5 or 7 and page 1 is reserved for bashing us, as simple as that.
Q. So, you think only negative news gets highlighted?
NK: I will give you an example. I was in London just last week. I had gone for a conference to Lyon, France, and on my way back, I stopped over in London for a day because my daughter lives there. When we were leaving, I saw a tabloid at the airport. The news inside was that a woman had been raped while she was sleeping inside a camp pitched for buying Wimbeldon tickets. A tabloid is expected to put it on the front page but it was on some 11th page.... Think, if something like this was to happen here (smiles)...
It's our nature not to praise anyone in public. We rarely pat each other on the back. I will give you an example — Parliament was attacked, the police cracked the case and arrested all accused within 72 hours. Now, if something similar had happened in the US or UK, what's the treatment the police team would have got? They would have been guests of Obama at White House, a special function would have been organized, the chief investigator would have been on the cover of Time and Newsweek. But what happened to our officers? You wouldn't even know who they are. The Red Fort attack case was solved, a Pakistani conspirator was neutralized, but what happened ? Did anybody get anything?
Q. Can you give examples of cases where you think the police didn't get its due?
NK: In which case did I get my due? The day the new home minister assumed charge, there was a lot of talk that the Pune serial blasts welcomed him. Who cracked the case? Not Maharashtra police, not Pune police... it was cracked by Delhi Police. What accolades did we get? We faced such a lot of criticism in the gang rape case. Did any newspaper highlight the fact that within 72 hours the case was cracked and that the last two accused were arrested from the interiors of a Naxalite-infested area where the local police was scared to go. Within 10 days — it is a record in this country — the case was chargesheeted and within record time the prosecution evidence is over. We already have the first conviction in the juvenile court. But who writes about it?
Look at the Boston bombings. The police shut the city for three days and three nights. Can you imagine Delhi Police shutting down the city? If we enforce curfew or restrict entry of vehicles to a certain area, the heavens begin to fall. They (Boston police) cracked it, killed one guy, arrested the other — and you can see on the net people standing with placards saying 'Thank you police'.
Q. You solved the Nirbhaya case within hours but were then presented with a situation in which the political leadership seemed to be dithering, making it seem entirely like a law and order situation. In other words, do you think you were presented with a no-win situation?
NK: I don't want to go into those details — why it became politicized. That was very unfortunate. But as I said, it was all bankrolled and motivated. In all fairness, the Government of India and the lieutenant-governor of Delhi were solidly behind us and believed me. Not for a minute did I face any kind of worry or was shaken because I knew that we had done everything right.
Q. Will Delhi Police under the Delhi government work more efficiently?
NK: I would like to know, how and why? Are the police forces in the states around us working better because they are accountable to the local government? All capital cities in the world function under the federal government. Why? For the simple reason that should there be two political parties, one at the federal level and the other at the provincial level, there could be a clash. As a police officer, I have always said it's the decision of the government and we are happy either way. If the government tomorrow decides to put us under the state government, do we have a choice? And we are not even going to be asked.
Q. Do you think civil society has a role as a conscience-keeper of the country?
NK: Sure, civil society has a role. The only thing is that in the name of civil society, people who are not responsible should not operate. How to define civil society? Civil society normally would mean great intellectuals, great thinkers from different fields, whether they are in social sciences, journalism, politics... a person like Amartya Sen... eminent people who have the interest of the country in mind. If they say something or if there is a body under them, that is civil society.
Q. So, what you see at India Gate and Jantar Mantar is not civil society?
NK: I don't want to pass a value judgement. I can't say they (protesters) don't have the interest of the country in mind. Surely, it's a democratic system and anybody can protest and say what they want to say. It is for society to decide whether so and so is civil society or not.
Q. The image of a police chief is that of a hardboiled cop but you have a creative side and this also runs in the family. How do you find the time to indulge this side of yours?
NK: I take pride in the fact that I am a hardboiled cop. I think policing, I believe policing, I dream policing and I am very proud of that. Whatever little digressions you talked about are offshoots of this.... I wrote 'Police File Se' — it was about the police. I helped in the script of Gangaajal and Apaharan and it was about the police.
Q. Talking about Bollywood, do you think it depicts cops realistically? In 'Jolly LLB', there is an elaborate scene of a Delhi thana auction. Is this just artistic licence?
NK: See, there used to be a very senior journalist when I joined the service. He had written in a piece at that time that thanas are auctioned. I would like to be enlightened which thana has been auctioned, who paid the money and who received it. In my 13 months, I have not come to know. It is very much fictitious.
Q. Do you feel there is erosion in the image of a policeman? Attacks on them in law and order situations have become so common.
NK: I don't have the data right now but this has been happening all the time. It boils down to the same thing — we as people are anti-establishment and the police in India is the symbol of the government, the visible symbol of power. So, if the establishment has to be attacked, the first to get attacked will be the police.
Q. Has this got anything to do with the rotten apples in the police, the corruption which dents the image of the force?
NK: If you have a force of 85,000, there will be a few rotten eggs. Howsoever bad the rotten eggs are, if you talk to people, they will say Delhi Police is best in terms of showing results. Which police force in India can claim 100% success in solving terror cases? You name an important case and it rarely goes unsolved.
Q. Do you think the involvement of migrants in crimes in Delhi is an overstated fact or a reality?
NK: It is overstated and sheer nonsense. It is not backed by any data. It is very easy to say 'Oh, they come and they commit crimes.' The migrants are too busy eking out an existence. There are exceptions but this cannot be generalized.
Q. Delhi's traffic is growing phenomenally. The police just regulate to the best of their ability but when it comes to important decisions about vehicle mix and modes, it's the government which decides. Does this rankle with you and do you think it should change?
NK: Yes, there is a lot that can be done. The most important thing is licensing. Unless we have very high standards of driving capabilities to form the basis for issuing a licence, we cannot expect road traffic to improve. See, enforcement can take care of the deviants, but when 90-95 % people believe in flouting traffic rules, you cannot manage it by enforcement. It's a misconception that "police danda ghumayegi aur traffic theek ho jaayega". If you travel abroad, you will see how particular people are about everything on road. They are so conscious about getting a ticket (challan). And the ticket there is so heavy... like in London it's around £650 for a traffic violation. Our fines are no deterrent. People here just throw hundred rupees at the cops and don't even wait for the challan.
Q. There are also new kinds of vehicles being introduced like Grameen Sewa, small tempos and autorickshaws. What do you have to say?
NK: Can you imagine those small tricycles running at India Gate? These are all very fancy vote-catching schemes. I have taken up this issue with the LG. About rickshaws, Supreme Court is giving instructions but people come in the way, saying they have to earn their livelihood. When I was DCP (traffic), I wanted to ban rickshaws in Chandni Chowk. There was this MCD commissioner (I will not name him) who said all other vehicles should be banned in Chandni Chowk, not the rickshaws. If you have more modes of transport on the road, you have more problems. If you have a slow-moving vehicle in the right lane, how would you move?
Q. Also, after so many years, the autorickshaw problem has not been solved?
NK: It's again the system. Now we are trying to device a system in which the autos will have a light on top which will indicate if it's vacant. It will then have to take passengers. In London, even during daytime, if you spot a taxi with its light on, it means it's available, and even if you have to go ten steps, it will not refuse. Now, we are also fixing colour codes. Bulk of the decision-making is with another department — transport. It gives the licences, permits and everything else.
Q. Has harnessing technology in policing — which can be a force multiplier — kept pace with what's happening around the world?
NK: A short answer is no. The intentions are there, moves are there... we have made some strides in that direction, like we have CCTV cameras, but we need many more, we need them to be integrated.
Q. What is your wish list — like these are the few things you would like Delhi Police to have?
NK: First and foremost, we should have data availability on the move. In the patrol cars abroad, there is a computer. If an officer suddenly spots a car and finds it suspicious, he will just punch in the car details and get a feedback immediately from the database whether it is stolen or wanted in a case. Suppose, he wants to find out the antecedents (of the driver), he will take his fingerprints then and there and get a feedback whether he has any criminal record. So, our patrol vans, bikes and beat constables should have PDAs which would give access to our database. There is no use having such a large database if it can't be accessed in real time. Incidentally, World Bank has sanctioned a Rs 41-crore project for this. It will take time but it will come. The second, of course, is CCTVs. Right now, we have a sanction for about 5,500 CCTVs. Another project called 'Safe City' will add another 9,000 cameras. But the requirement, considering the size of the city, is much more. And it's not enough to have just CCTVs as it has to be an intelligent and integrated system. The third important thing is the traffic system — we should have ITS (intelligent traffic system).
Q. We have been talking about intelligent traffic system for a long time.
NK: There were delays earlier. Now, we have PricewaterhouseCoopers, which has no experience in traffic management. I had a meeting with them and I said 'Look, the stipulation was that the government will engage you and you will subcontract the job to the very best traffic consultants. So, you better find somebody with whom we can talk... you don't know anything about traffic.' We also cautioned them that it should not be vendor-driven. They understood, and I haven't checked after that because I was travelling.
The basic principle that police forces follow abroad is that if you want to stay one step ahead of the criminals, you have to be technologically superior. You must have faster cars and a better surveillance system. Our surveillance methods are still traditional like telephones. Now, people are going to Skype and encryption and all kinds of chats. You can't intercept Whatsapp, Blackberry messenger and so many other things. Don't the criminals and terrorists know what the capabilities of the police are?
Q. What about forensics?
NK: In forensics, we are woefully behind. It is also in the top few things on my wish list. We are lacking in every field — there is pendency, shortage of manpower, shortage of skills, shortage of equipment and infrastructure.... Abroad, investigations are driven by forensic experts and prosecutors. At every step, the prosecutor knows what the defence will raise and he accordingly guides the police, but the real investigation is done by the forensic expert. And forensics there is really advanced. Most of the cases they solve are based on forensics.
Q. How much of political interference did you have to face during your tenure?
NK: In Delhi, we are blessed... there is hardly any political interference. I won't say it was 'nil' but it was minimal. It is nothing compared to what one faces in Goa or Mizoram or Arunachal Pradesh. The reason of less interference in Delhi is that we are under the federal government.
Q. Do you think your IPL case is strong enough to get convictions?
NK: I have made a commitment to myself that I have to file the chargesheet before I leave. The evidence is very simple — phone intercepts, matching of phone samples with the intercepts and whatever is being said on the intercepts is being seen on television. Also, we have statements.
Q. Once you hang up your boots, will we get to see the birth of an active scriptwriter?
NK: Right now, my immediate plan is to go to my daughter who is expecting a baby any day now in London. My wife is already there. I will go to London on August 5 and come back at end of August, and then I will decide what to do.
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